1 00:00:17,140 --> 00:00:09,120 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 2 00:00:30,220 --> 00:00:26,270 [Music] 3 00:00:36,130 --> 00:00:32,679 oh and welcome to the skeptic zone 4 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:36,140 podcast episode number 531 for the 23rd 5 00:00:40,810 --> 00:00:37,970 of December 2018 6 00:00:43,119 --> 00:00:40,820 richardsaunders here with you coming to 7 00:00:46,299 --> 00:00:43,129 you today from downtown San Francisco 8 00:00:51,310 --> 00:00:46,309 I'm right on Market Street not far from 9 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:51,320 Macy's lots of people buzzing about down 10 00:00:57,760 --> 00:00:54,170 here last-minute Christmas shopping I 11 00:01:02,050 --> 00:01:00,430 coming up on this week's show we're 12 00:01:03,580 --> 00:01:02,060 going to start off with the raw skeptic 13 00:01:06,490 --> 00:01:03,590 Heidi Robertson from the Northern Rivers 14 00:01:09,580 --> 00:01:06,500 vaccination supporters she's going to 15 00:01:11,650 --> 00:01:09,590 report on the 7:30 report the 7:30 16 00:01:14,890 --> 00:01:11,660 reporters and news information program 17 00:01:18,490 --> 00:01:14,900 on the national broadcaster in Australia 18 00:01:20,740 --> 00:01:18,500 and recently they did a story focused on 19 00:01:24,670 --> 00:01:20,750 the Northern Rivers area about the no 20 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:24,680 jab no play Lourdes and its 21 00:01:31,090 --> 00:01:28,370 ramifications on children not being now 22 00:01:32,980 --> 00:01:31,100 admitted to preschools a very 23 00:01:35,950 --> 00:01:32,990 interesting report indeed from Heidi 24 00:01:38,740 --> 00:01:35,960 Robinson following that it's an update 25 00:01:41,109 --> 00:01:38,750 from our friend Britt amis Britt you'll 26 00:01:44,230 --> 00:01:41,119 will remember was a former naturopath 27 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:44,240 who well I guess sort of saw the light 28 00:01:51,550 --> 00:01:48,770 and has written about the real ins and 29 00:01:54,670 --> 00:01:51,560 outs of naturopathy the pseudoscience 30 00:01:57,880 --> 00:01:54,680 and the bunk involved with that and she 31 00:01:59,940 --> 00:01:57,890 gives an update on her legal case being 32 00:02:02,919 --> 00:01:59,950 a conducted in Germany at the moment 33 00:02:05,740 --> 00:02:02,929 then we have Maynard skeptics in the pub 34 00:02:07,690 --> 00:02:05,750 may not spoke to Tom Gordon who is one 35 00:02:12,190 --> 00:02:07,700 of the presenters at skip Dickinson pub 36 00:02:13,950 --> 00:02:12,200 a couple of months ago Tom is involved 37 00:02:17,860 --> 00:02:13,960 at the City University where he's a 38 00:02:19,810 --> 00:02:17,870 senior science communicator Tom gave a 39 00:02:21,310 --> 00:02:19,820 fascinating talk and used a theremin 40 00:02:24,100 --> 00:02:21,320 when you hear the theremin in the 41 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:24,110 background he's gonna be talking about 42 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:28,090 the quality in physics quantum computers 43 00:02:35,500 --> 00:02:31,490 climate change how to make a hit song 44 00:02:38,260 --> 00:02:35,510 and pulsars is a wide-ranging interview 45 00:02:40,170 --> 00:02:38,270 with Tom Gordon Maynard spooky action 46 00:02:42,370 --> 00:02:40,180 coming up a bit later on in the show 47 00:02:44,220 --> 00:02:42,380 then to round off the show we have the 48 00:02:48,670 --> 00:02:44,230 Australian Medical Association's 49 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:48,680 commentary on alternative medicine and 50 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:51,050 complementary medicines their position 51 00:02:57,220 --> 00:02:54,530 statement and it's a warning supporting 52 00:03:03,330 --> 00:02:59,170 well what groovy sounds they're coming 53 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:06,540 okay hang out here maybe grab a hot dog 54 00:03:14,250 --> 00:03:08,530 from a vendor just down the street why 55 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:21,540 [Music] 56 00:03:44,430 --> 00:03:35,250 it's the raw skeptic report with Heidi 57 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:44,440 Robertson hello everyone this is Heidi 58 00:03:50,490 --> 00:03:46,170 Robertson from the Northern Rivers 59 00:03:52,860 --> 00:03:50,500 vaccinations supporters a couple of 60 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:52,870 weeks ago I've got a phone call from a 61 00:03:59,670 --> 00:03:55,810 Peter McCutcheon a journalist with 62 00:04:03,750 --> 00:03:59,680 Australian TVs seven-thirty report which 63 00:04:06,290 --> 00:04:03,760 is an ABC news program Peter have 64 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:06,300 interviewed me about three years ago 65 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:10,930 about the policy of no jab no play which 66 00:04:16,350 --> 00:04:13,690 along with no job no pay places 67 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:16,360 restrictions on parents who do not have 68 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:19,090 their children immunized in terms of 69 00:04:23,850 --> 00:04:21,210 sending them to preschool facilities and 70 00:04:29,280 --> 00:04:23,860 receiving government benefits associated 71 00:04:32,100 --> 00:04:29,290 with child care and immunisation the 72 00:04:36,690 --> 00:04:32,110 7:30 report wanted to do a follow-up 73 00:04:38,610 --> 00:04:36,700 story about no jab no play this time 74 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:38,620 with the angle of looking at how the 75 00:04:44,790 --> 00:04:41,530 policy is seen by some as disadvantaging 76 00:04:48,300 --> 00:04:44,800 children by restricting their access to 77 00:04:50,250 --> 00:04:48,310 early childhood education at the 78 00:04:52,770 --> 00:04:50,260 Northern Rivers vaccination supporters 79 00:04:56,460 --> 00:04:52,780 we have taken the stance that yes these 80 00:04:59,600 --> 00:04:56,470 kids are disadvantaged but it is their 81 00:05:03,540 --> 00:04:59,610 own parents who are disadvantaging them 82 00:05:05,460 --> 00:05:03,550 many of these parents as we know have 83 00:05:08,750 --> 00:05:05,470 been swayed by the anti-vaccination 84 00:05:12,930 --> 00:05:08,760 movement which is based on lies and 85 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:12,940 scaremongering tactics and as we know 86 00:05:19,860 --> 00:05:15,010 once you've been scared it is very 87 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:19,870 difficult to become unscared Katerina 88 00:05:26,010 --> 00:05:22,930 Gorka who lives at UK recently found out 89 00:05:28,380 --> 00:05:26,020 her son Manu can't join his sister Meir 90 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:28,390 at preschool 91 00:05:35,220 --> 00:05:32,050 I don't think it's fair to be honest it 92 00:05:38,820 --> 00:05:35,230 makes me feel like we're but secluded 93 00:05:41,220 --> 00:05:38,830 from society yeah did you ever think 94 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:41,230 I'll get my son vaccinated so I get 95 00:05:46,670 --> 00:05:43,690 around this preschool problem no I don't 96 00:05:48,840 --> 00:05:46,680 know I never thought about them why not 97 00:05:50,490 --> 00:05:48,850 because I have a set opinion on 98 00:05:54,510 --> 00:05:50,500 vaccinations and that's not going to 99 00:05:56,910 --> 00:05:54,520 change these kids do not deserve to be 100 00:06:00,180 --> 00:05:56,920 denied this opportunity to miss out on 101 00:06:02,340 --> 00:06:00,190 preschool neither do they deserve to be 102 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:02,350 left an immune eyes in an area with 103 00:06:07,740 --> 00:06:04,770 dangerously low vaccination rates and 104 00:06:09,870 --> 00:06:07,750 neither do the immune compromised kids 105 00:06:12,540 --> 00:06:09,880 and the babies too young to be 106 00:06:15,900 --> 00:06:12,550 vaccinated deserve to be in an 107 00:06:19,110 --> 00:06:15,910 environment with 50% or more of kids 108 00:06:21,570 --> 00:06:19,120 being unvaccinated and that is the 109 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:21,580 current case at the Mount Warning 110 00:06:26,370 --> 00:06:24,130 community preschool which was featured 111 00:06:27,580 --> 00:06:26,380 in the 7:30 report 112 00:06:30,159 --> 00:06:27,590 [Music] 113 00:06:31,990 --> 00:06:30,169 the Mount Warning community preschool 114 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:32,000 near Byron Bay in northern New South 115 00:06:38,470 --> 00:06:35,570 Wales is shrinking from 60 enrollments 116 00:06:41,650 --> 00:06:38,480 now to 40 next year and probably even 117 00:06:44,620 --> 00:06:41,660 fewer from 2020 in an area that is 118 00:06:49,780 --> 00:06:44,630 growing you'll be able to continue here 119 00:06:53,290 --> 00:06:49,790 do you think we plan to so what we'll 120 00:06:54,940 --> 00:06:53,300 see yeah it's hard to tell the problem 121 00:06:57,909 --> 00:06:54,950 is that half the children here are 122 00:07:00,460 --> 00:06:57,919 unvaccinated under new state government 123 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:00,470 rules they're allowed to stay here but 124 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:02,330 they're unvaccinated younger brothers 125 00:07:06,820 --> 00:07:04,490 and sisters are banned from enrolling in 126 00:07:10,870 --> 00:07:06,830 the future as part of a policy known as 127 00:07:12,940 --> 00:07:10,880 no jab no play the filming for this 128 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:12,950 interview was done along with an 129 00:07:19,810 --> 00:07:16,370 interview with Tony McCaffrey and took 130 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:19,820 about three hours it was aired last 131 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:23,690 night the 18th of December 2018 of 132 00:07:29,430 --> 00:07:26,810 course all that filming of three hours 133 00:07:32,350 --> 00:07:29,440 had to be heavily edited down and 134 00:07:36,370 --> 00:07:32,360 resulted in a couple of sentences from 135 00:07:39,490 --> 00:07:36,380 me but more importantly ed Tony's story 136 00:07:44,230 --> 00:07:39,500 about her daughter Dana's death in 2009 137 00:07:47,409 --> 00:07:44,240 as a result of whooping cough my four 138 00:07:48,700 --> 00:07:47,419 week old baby coughed and coughed and 139 00:07:50,409 --> 00:07:48,710 coughed and coughed and coughed which 140 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:50,419 seemed like four minutes and went blue 141 00:07:57,480 --> 00:07:52,490 stopped breathing and passed out in my 142 00:08:00,129 --> 00:07:57,490 arms and the hospital staff very calmly 143 00:08:04,770 --> 00:08:00,139 took her from me and put oxygen on her 144 00:08:09,010 --> 00:08:04,780 face and said yep classic whooping cough 145 00:08:10,150 --> 00:08:09,020 baby Dana McCaffrey died in 2009 at 146 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:10,160 Lismore Hospital 147 00:08:14,820 --> 00:08:11,730 [Music] 148 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:14,830 her mother Tony is now part of a group 149 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:16,810 that helps to promote inform debate 150 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:19,690 about immunization Heidi Robertson is 151 00:08:24,750 --> 00:08:22,450 the group's coordinator vaccination 152 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:24,760 rates have increased and they've 153 00:08:31,380 --> 00:08:28,330 increased slowly but they continue to go 154 00:08:34,500 --> 00:08:31,390 up every time new data comes out what 155 00:08:36,990 --> 00:08:34,510 was not aired was Tony explaining that 156 00:08:40,290 --> 00:08:37,000 Dana had likely picked up whooping cough 157 00:08:42,380 --> 00:08:40,300 in a preschool facility where Tony had 158 00:08:46,340 --> 00:08:42,390 been dropping off her elder daughter 159 00:08:49,250 --> 00:08:46,350 carrying newborn Dana in with her 160 00:08:52,350 --> 00:08:49,260 Tony's husband had returned to work and 161 00:08:55,890 --> 00:08:52,360 Tony had no choice like many other 162 00:08:58,230 --> 00:08:55,900 parents but to take her baby with her to 163 00:09:02,460 --> 00:08:58,240 do the daily chores and this included 164 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:02,470 going into that preschool unbeknownst to 165 00:09:08,850 --> 00:09:05,890 her but confirmed later whooping cough 166 00:09:11,790 --> 00:09:08,860 was rife in the preschool facility at 167 00:09:14,430 --> 00:09:11,800 that stage and there was a current 168 00:09:19,680 --> 00:09:14,440 epidemic of whooping cough in the entire 169 00:09:22,940 --> 00:09:19,690 region at that time Dana did not get a 170 00:09:25,470 --> 00:09:22,950 chance for an early childhood education 171 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:25,480 nor have the other babies that have died 172 00:09:32,030 --> 00:09:28,210 or become permanently disabled as a 173 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:32,040 result of a vaccine preventable disease 174 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:34,930 the baby here in this region that now 175 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:37,330 has a permanent brain injury as a result 176 00:09:42,180 --> 00:09:39,850 of hypoxia or lack of oxygen from 177 00:09:45,180 --> 00:09:42,190 whooping cough will not get the 178 00:09:47,100 --> 00:09:45,190 opportunity for preschool neither will 179 00:09:50,670 --> 00:09:47,110 the baby in this region that was denied 180 00:09:53,460 --> 00:09:50,680 a vitamin K shot at birth and now has a 181 00:09:56,490 --> 00:09:53,470 permanent brain injury as a result of a 182 00:09:59,340 --> 00:09:56,500 massive brain bleed the kid in this 183 00:10:01,650 --> 00:09:59,350 region who had chemotherapy and was 184 00:10:05,430 --> 00:10:01,660 exposed to a vaccine preventable disease 185 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:05,440 missed out on much of preschool instead 186 00:10:10,470 --> 00:10:08,530 spending days quarantined with the 187 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:10,480 anxious parents waiting to hear if 188 00:10:16,830 --> 00:10:12,490 they've contracted the potentially fatal 189 00:10:19,350 --> 00:10:16,840 disease a mum here lost her child to 190 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:19,360 complications of measles and that child 191 00:10:23,429 --> 00:10:21,370 did get to go to preschool but missed 192 00:10:26,590 --> 00:10:23,439 out on high school 193 00:10:29,410 --> 00:10:26,600 these are just a handful of the many 194 00:10:33,309 --> 00:10:29,420 stories that our group hears all the 195 00:10:36,249 --> 00:10:33,319 time the public will never know of the 196 00:10:40,239 --> 00:10:36,259 multitude of other babies and children 197 00:10:43,389 --> 00:10:40,249 who have died or suffered as it is the 198 00:10:48,489 --> 00:10:43,399 parents choice to go public and not many 199 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:48,499 do which is very understandable so like 200 00:10:54,369 --> 00:10:51,410 a very eloquent cath who's said to me 201 00:10:58,419 --> 00:10:54,379 you remember Kath who also lost her son 202 00:11:01,299 --> 00:10:58,429 Riley to whooping cough she said quote 203 00:11:04,689 --> 00:11:01,309 until such time as the experts figure 204 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:04,699 out a way to change minds these policies 205 00:11:09,540 --> 00:11:07,730 are working to change behaviors end 206 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:09,550 quote 207 00:11:15,389 --> 00:11:12,170 there has been media coverage today 208 00:11:17,799 --> 00:11:15,399 since this report went to air last night 209 00:11:20,619 --> 00:11:17,809 overwhelmingly in support of the 210 00:11:23,290 --> 00:11:20,629 policies and critical of the viewpoint 211 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:23,300 that preschool education Trump's the 212 00:11:28,359 --> 00:11:25,689 health and well-being of children a 213 00:11:30,879 --> 00:11:28,369 parent with first-hand experience of 214 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:30,889 childhood disease says health should 215 00:11:38,380 --> 00:11:34,850 always come first I know it sounds like 216 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:38,390 tough love however 217 00:11:48,810 --> 00:11:45,170 these diseases can and do kill and what 218 00:11:51,820 --> 00:11:48,820 this policy is all about is keeping 219 00:11:54,310 --> 00:11:51,830 child care and preschool safer to 220 00:11:56,170 --> 00:11:54,320 protect our most vulnerable I'll leave 221 00:12:00,040 --> 00:11:56,180 it to Richard to link to some of that 222 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:00,050 media in the show notes thanks for 223 00:12:04,690 --> 00:12:02,090 listening and until next time this has 224 00:12:08,410 --> 00:12:04,700 been highly Robertson of the Northern 225 00:12:08,420 --> 00:12:15,990 [Music] 226 00:12:20,620 --> 00:12:18,940 hey max fun listeners have you been 227 00:12:22,420 --> 00:12:20,630 listening to max fun for a while and 228 00:12:24,430 --> 00:12:22,430 you've just been wondering where's the 229 00:12:26,230 --> 00:12:24,440 new Flat Earth podcast to keep hearing 230 00:12:29,410 --> 00:12:26,240 about well here it is we give you all 231 00:12:34,150 --> 00:12:29,420 the facts on NASA's lies and how we know 232 00:12:37,330 --> 00:12:34,160 that the earth is actually flat this is 233 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:37,340 oh no Ross and Carrie and we join fringe 234 00:12:41,380 --> 00:12:39,290 religious groups we undergo alternative 235 00:12:43,330 --> 00:12:41,390 medical treatments and we hang out with 236 00:12:44,830 --> 00:12:43,340 people like 9/11 truthers flat earthers 237 00:12:47,380 --> 00:12:44,840 we find out why do people believe 238 00:12:49,090 --> 00:12:47,390 strange things we join them and we tell 239 00:12:50,770 --> 00:12:49,100 you all about it we have a lot of fun we 240 00:12:52,500 --> 00:12:50,780 make a lot of friends yeah we do we 241 00:12:55,090 --> 00:12:52,510 joined the Mormons we joined the 242 00:12:57,340 --> 00:12:55,100 Scientologists we got acupuncture we got 243 00:12:58,900 --> 00:12:57,350 fire cups we got ear candled we've done 244 00:13:00,730 --> 00:12:58,910 it all and we're gonna keep doing it all 245 00:13:07,370 --> 00:13:00,740 why don't you check out oh no Ross and 246 00:13:07,380 --> 00:13:19,230 [Music] 247 00:13:23,590 --> 00:13:21,700 now here's an update that comes to us 248 00:13:26,380 --> 00:13:23,600 from the Australian skeptics website at 249 00:13:29,050 --> 00:13:26,390 skeptics comdataís you read Hermes 250 00:13:31,750 --> 00:13:29,060 campaign an update on the defamation 251 00:13:40,510 --> 00:13:31,760 case this is by Tim Mendham published on 252 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:40,520 the 18th of December 2018 Britt Burmese 253 00:13:45,700 --> 00:13:43,130 is an American former naturopath and 254 00:13:47,470 --> 00:13:45,710 noted skeptical campaigner who has spent 255 00:13:49,330 --> 00:13:47,480 much time and effort lately in 256 00:13:52,650 --> 00:13:49,340 campaigning against naturopathic 257 00:13:56,380 --> 00:13:52,660 practices she is the author of the blog 258 00:13:57,940 --> 00:13:56,390 naturopathic Diaries here she provides 259 00:14:00,550 --> 00:13:57,950 an update on the status of her 260 00:14:04,450 --> 00:14:00,560 defamation suit over naturopathy 261 00:14:10,300 --> 00:14:04,460 and the skeptics campaign to cover her 262 00:14:14,350 --> 00:14:10,310 legal expense britt hermes writes dear 263 00:14:17,620 --> 00:14:14,360 friends in October 2017 I was served 264 00:14:20,710 --> 00:14:17,630 with a German lawsuit from an American 265 00:14:23,500 --> 00:14:20,720 naturopath named Colleen Huber who 266 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:23,510 alleges that I committed defamation 267 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:26,450 against her when I criticized her cancer 268 00:14:31,510 --> 00:14:28,730 treatments and claims of extraordinary 269 00:14:34,030 --> 00:14:31,520 results to help support my defense 270 00:14:37,750 --> 00:14:34,040 against this legal threat Australian 271 00:14:41,410 --> 00:14:37,760 skeptics Inc asi spearheaded a fund 272 00:14:44,350 --> 00:14:41,420 raising campaign to which you generously 273 00:14:47,350 --> 00:14:44,360 contributed the success of this effort 274 00:14:50,650 --> 00:14:47,360 was astonishing we reached our goal of 275 00:14:53,470 --> 00:14:50,660 raising at least 50,000 euros or about 276 00:14:57,030 --> 00:14:53,480 80,000 Australian dollars in less than 277 00:14:59,500 --> 00:14:57,040 nine days as of this week more than 278 00:15:04,570 --> 00:14:59,510 $100,000 Australian has been raised over 279 00:15:08,170 --> 00:15:04,580 the last year about $33,000 or 20,000 280 00:15:11,460 --> 00:15:08,180 euros has been put towards my legal fees 281 00:15:14,290 --> 00:15:11,470 so far these funds have been 282 00:15:16,540 --> 00:15:14,300 indispensable to my case and without 283 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:16,550 them I would not be able to defend 284 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:19,250 myself I want to share with you an 285 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:20,570 update from 286 00:15:27,550 --> 00:15:24,650 case in April 2018 my judge heard the 287 00:15:30,100 --> 00:15:27,560 case in Kiel the judge reviewed the 288 00:15:31,330 --> 00:15:30,110 points of the case with my lawyer and 289 00:15:34,660 --> 00:15:31,340 who burrs lawyer 290 00:15:37,150 --> 00:15:34,670 hooba did not appear at the hearing nor 291 00:15:40,210 --> 00:15:37,160 was she required to do so the judge 292 00:15:42,370 --> 00:15:40,220 offered no ruling and informed us he 293 00:15:44,550 --> 00:15:42,380 would continue to review the legal 294 00:15:48,220 --> 00:15:44,560 briefs submitted by both sides and 295 00:15:50,850 --> 00:15:48,230 relevant case law we were expecting to 296 00:15:53,230 --> 00:15:50,860 have another hearing by late summer 2018 297 00:15:55,780 --> 00:15:53,240 several months later we learned that the 298 00:15:58,630 --> 00:15:55,790 judge who had heard the case suddenly 299 00:16:01,480 --> 00:15:58,640 moved to another chamber so our case was 300 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:01,490 reassigned to a new judge now we are 301 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:03,530 told there will be a hearing in front of 302 00:16:10,060 --> 00:16:06,890 this judge in early 2019 but the date 303 00:16:11,740 --> 00:16:10,070 has yet to be scheduled I have been 304 00:16:15,250 --> 00:16:11,750 happy with this slow pages of the German 305 00:16:17,740 --> 00:16:15,260 Court as it has given me respite from 306 00:16:20,110 --> 00:16:17,750 the stress of the case most importantly 307 00:16:23,470 --> 00:16:20,120 I am lucky to be able to focus on my 308 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:23,480 baby on the same day I found out I was 309 00:16:28,390 --> 00:16:25,810 being sued I found out I was pregnant 310 00:16:31,810 --> 00:16:28,400 your generous support and the strong 311 00:16:34,710 --> 00:16:31,820 effort of ASI to organize the fundraiser 312 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:34,720 allowed me to keep my stress low I 313 00:16:39,700 --> 00:16:37,010 intended to keep up with my blogging 314 00:16:41,950 --> 00:16:39,710 public speaking and PhD program during 315 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:41,960 my pregnancy but severe and prolonged 316 00:16:47,140 --> 00:16:44,330 morning sickness made this impossible 317 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:47,150 those who heard my skype talk at skeptic 318 00:16:52,630 --> 00:16:50,450 on 2017 conference may be amused to 319 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:52,640 learn that I had a bucket at my feet 320 00:16:58,390 --> 00:16:55,970 just in case dr. Karl Cruz will miss key 321 00:17:00,850 --> 00:16:58,400 Australian science communicator assured 322 00:17:03,190 --> 00:17:00,860 me that all my intense morning sickness 323 00:17:05,439 --> 00:17:03,200 meant that my baby was healthy and 324 00:17:08,790 --> 00:17:05,449 robust sure enough I delivered a healthy 325 00:17:11,710 --> 00:17:08,800 and very strong baby girl in June 2018 326 00:17:14,170 --> 00:17:11,720 mum life has been wonderful but I am 327 00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:14,180 still struggling to balance PhD work 328 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:17,329 home life and writing projects to 329 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:19,250 outsiders it may appear as though the 330 00:17:24,699 --> 00:17:21,890 legal cases deferred me from writing 331 00:17:26,710 --> 00:17:24,709 rest assured it is just a new member of 332 00:17:28,860 --> 00:17:26,720 the skeptical community that keeps me 333 00:17:31,990 --> 00:17:28,870 away from the computer and not any 334 00:17:33,930 --> 00:17:32,000 specific legal concern in other exciting 335 00:17:36,090 --> 00:17:33,940 news last month I was awarded 336 00:17:38,430 --> 00:17:36,100 John Maddox priors for standing up for 337 00:17:41,249 --> 00:17:38,440 science in the face of hostility and 338 00:17:43,499 --> 00:17:41,259 difficulty Australian marine biologist 339 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:43,509 Terry Hughes was also awarded the prize 340 00:17:48,389 --> 00:17:46,090 for his research on coral bleaching due 341 00:17:51,060 --> 00:17:48,399 to climate change and opposition he 342 00:17:53,279 --> 00:17:51,070 faced in doing so I was nominated for 343 00:17:56,039 --> 00:17:53,289 the prize by Professor Chris French and 344 00:17:58,139 --> 00:17:56,049 dr. Chris Peters I am deeply honored to 345 00:18:00,810 --> 00:17:58,149 be awarded the John Maddox prize and to 346 00:18:03,810 --> 00:18:00,820 stand alongside others who champion 347 00:18:05,399 --> 00:18:03,820 science against adversity for me this 348 00:18:07,529 --> 00:18:05,409 award means that the scientific 349 00:18:11,310 --> 00:18:07,539 community does not define you by 350 00:18:14,009 --> 00:18:11,320 mistakes rather by responses to them 351 00:18:16,259 --> 00:18:14,019 I expect 2019 to be another 352 00:18:19,619 --> 00:18:16,269 action-packed year I will return 353 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:19,629 full-time to my PhD program in which I 354 00:18:24,180 --> 00:18:21,570 research the genetic interplay between 355 00:18:26,639 --> 00:18:24,190 microbiota and their mammalian hosts I 356 00:18:29,369 --> 00:18:26,649 will also start writing regularly again 357 00:18:31,980 --> 00:18:29,379 about naturopathy I feel it is my 358 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:31,990 ethical duty to speak out and provide 359 00:18:36,749 --> 00:18:34,210 fact-based information about this 360 00:18:40,289 --> 00:18:36,759 elusive community that remains in the 361 00:18:42,330 --> 00:18:40,299 deep end of pseudoscience naturopaths 362 00:18:44,970 --> 00:18:42,340 simply make up alternative facts about 363 00:18:47,669 --> 00:18:44,980 medicine to profit at the expense of 364 00:18:49,980 --> 00:18:47,679 people's health and safety I fully 365 00:18:53,899 --> 00:18:49,990 expect my right of freedom of expression 366 00:18:56,999 --> 00:18:53,909 to be upheld in the German court of law 367 00:19:02,820 --> 00:18:57,009 thank you for supporting me yours 368 00:19:05,029 --> 00:19:02,830 Brent Murray Hermes and that comes to us 369 00:19:09,509 --> 00:19:05,039 from the Australian skeptics website 370 00:19:11,730 --> 00:19:09,519 wwlp.com au published on the 18th of 371 00:19:12,360 --> 00:19:11,740 December with a link in this week's show 372 00:19:38,100 --> 00:19:12,370 notes 373 00:19:42,190 --> 00:19:38,110 [Music] 374 00:19:45,220 --> 00:19:42,200 dr. Harriet Hall MD no into thousands as 375 00:19:48,340 --> 00:19:45,230 the skeptic a retired family physician 376 00:19:50,410 --> 00:19:48,350 and former Air Force flight surgeon she 377 00:19:52,110 --> 00:19:50,420 writes about medicine so-called 378 00:19:55,980 --> 00:19:52,120 complementary and alternative medicine 379 00:19:59,080 --> 00:19:55,990 science hackery and critical thinking 380 00:20:01,330 --> 00:19:59,090 Harriet now has a free course a series 381 00:20:04,690 --> 00:20:01,340 of 10 video lectures on science-based 382 00:20:06,700 --> 00:20:04,700 medicine and alternative medicine the 383 00:20:08,830 --> 00:20:06,710 videos and an accompanying course guide 384 00:20:13,660 --> 00:20:08,840 can be found by following the link at 385 00:20:18,270 --> 00:20:13,670 skeptic info or by visiting web Randi's 386 00:20:22,020 --> 00:20:18,280 org slash educational - modules dot 387 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:22,030 html' topics covered in the series are 388 00:20:25,570 --> 00:20:24,290 science-based medicine vs. 389 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:25,580 evidence-based medicine 390 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:29,290 what is camp chiropractic acupuncture 391 00:20:35,350 --> 00:20:32,570 homeopathy naturopathy and herbal 392 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:35,360 medicine energy medicine miscellaneous 393 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:38,090 alternatives pitfalls in research and 394 00:20:44,830 --> 00:20:41,090 science based medicine in the media and 395 00:20:47,410 --> 00:20:44,840 politics Harriette covers each topic in 396 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:47,420 a matter-of-fact no-nonsense way that 397 00:20:54,260 --> 00:20:50,690 sure to educate and entertain skeptic 398 00:20:54,270 --> 00:21:06,150 [Music] 399 00:21:19,430 --> 00:21:11,110 years may not spooky action at a 400 00:21:24,540 --> 00:21:21,480 look we've just been listening to Tom 401 00:21:26,310 --> 00:21:24,550 here and Tom I know now were you once a 402 00:21:27,690 --> 00:21:26,320 junior science educator before you were 403 00:21:29,700 --> 00:21:27,700 a senior science educator how's that 404 00:21:31,350 --> 00:21:29,710 work now as the science communicator and 405 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:31,360 then they upgraded me to senior science 406 00:21:34,890 --> 00:21:33,010 communicator so there's no junior ones 407 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:34,900 says no jr. sighs give me a game that's 408 00:21:38,460 --> 00:21:36,610 a bit of a pity oh look and you were 409 00:21:41,970 --> 00:21:38,470 talking there earlier about a guy who 410 00:21:44,370 --> 00:21:41,980 got his uh his Nobel Prize because maybe 411 00:21:45,930 --> 00:21:44,380 he made a flashy video to do things like 412 00:21:47,730 --> 00:21:45,940 that actually influence the committee I 413 00:21:49,950 --> 00:21:47,740 don't think they do influence the 414 00:21:52,230 --> 00:21:49,960 committee but to me that's a thing that 415 00:21:55,110 --> 00:21:52,240 maybe should because this fleshie video 416 00:21:57,450 --> 00:21:55,120 said some as a negative thing it said 417 00:21:59,400 --> 00:21:57,460 some things about the the person who did 418 00:22:00,960 --> 00:21:59,410 the research research aside I'm sure the 419 00:22:03,270 --> 00:22:00,970 research is wonderful but the thing that 420 00:22:07,620 --> 00:22:03,280 the video was showing was something that 421 00:22:10,670 --> 00:22:07,630 was a bit odd and it would be if it was 422 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:10,680 up to me and it's not the Nobel Prize 423 00:22:15,360 --> 00:22:13,330 maybe it could take that into 424 00:22:16,740 --> 00:22:15,370 consideration yeah that'd be a tough one 425 00:22:18,390 --> 00:22:16,750 it would be like if it was a tie between 426 00:22:19,650 --> 00:22:18,400 that person and someone else and someone 427 00:22:21,570 --> 00:22:19,660 had done something in the public arena 428 00:22:23,460 --> 00:22:21,580 that brings baps physics in to 429 00:22:25,140 --> 00:22:23,470 distribute for example but then that 430 00:22:27,180 --> 00:22:25,150 gets very subjective quickly about - 431 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:27,190 doesn't matter yeah it does get very 432 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:29,410 subjective but what that what the the 433 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:32,050 message is there is physics is a place 434 00:22:36,300 --> 00:22:34,090 for people and you are not one of those 435 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:36,310 people right to a certain group of 436 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:38,770 people in physics it really does say you 437 00:22:43,350 --> 00:22:40,930 are not you are not welcome here and 438 00:22:45,300 --> 00:22:43,360 that's a big big problem for me that's 439 00:22:47,610 --> 00:22:45,310 right yeah because video is kind of 440 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:47,620 making things a less pleasant place for 441 00:22:52,830 --> 00:22:50,290 women to be correct if I read that video 442 00:22:55,140 --> 00:22:52,840 right and I'm pretty sure I did yeah it 443 00:22:58,440 --> 00:22:55,150 was it was definitely women have a place 444 00:23:00,810 --> 00:22:58,450 but it's not in a lab disagree with oh 445 00:23:03,060 --> 00:23:00,820 yeah I mean is this your part that maybe 446 00:23:05,070 --> 00:23:03,070 some women would maybe don't want to do 447 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:05,080 engineering or don't want to do physics 448 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:06,730 is that a legitimate thing if they don't 449 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:08,650 want to do it - of course of course it 450 00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:11,410 is just like some men don't want to I 451 00:23:14,580 --> 00:23:12,910 really don't wanna do physics and being 452 00:23:18,430 --> 00:23:14,590 with engineers is not my idea of not a 453 00:23:21,050 --> 00:23:18,440 good time so ed engineers there 454 00:23:22,310 --> 00:23:21,060 so absolutely of course there is there 455 00:23:24,980 --> 00:23:22,320 is an argument to say if you don't want 456 00:23:27,230 --> 00:23:24,990 to do it you don't do it but from my 457 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:27,240 perspective you must make the place that 458 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:30,570 you are that you work accessible to 459 00:23:34,580 --> 00:23:33,210 everybody if they want to yeah and look 460 00:23:36,110 --> 00:23:34,590 I couldn't agree more with you and it's 461 00:23:38,090 --> 00:23:36,120 a pity that your story you did on that 462 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:38,100 for the ABC site the conversation I 463 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:39,690 think it's a bit I got pushed off the 464 00:23:44,180 --> 00:23:41,730 front page by a Liberal Party action led 465 00:23:46,610 --> 00:23:44,190 by some politics yeah it was it was a 466 00:23:48,380 --> 00:23:46,620 the the irony was not lost on me yeah 467 00:23:50,630 --> 00:23:48,390 they told me that this will get traction 468 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:50,640 and then it didn't because of literally 469 00:23:54,830 --> 00:23:52,890 the same thing in the Liberal Party yeah 470 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:54,840 and how I think has it has the mood in 471 00:23:58,250 --> 00:23:56,490 church education at the moment under 472 00:24:00,290 --> 00:23:58,260 this sort of a slight leaves right 473 00:24:02,150 --> 00:24:00,300 skewing government we've got now it has 474 00:24:04,010 --> 00:24:02,160 funding for Sydney for example can you 475 00:24:05,420 --> 00:24:04,020 even talk about that oh I don't know too 476 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:05,430 much about it I'm not I'm not involved 477 00:24:11,270 --> 00:24:09,210 in too much of the grants and Sydney Uni 478 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:11,280 is it's a pretty successful University 479 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:13,650 we got a lot of international students 480 00:24:18,860 --> 00:24:16,650 we get a lot of research funding you 481 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:18,870 know I don't I don't think we can we we 482 00:24:22,220 --> 00:24:20,010 don't see much of a difference between 483 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:22,230 the different governments and you said 484 00:24:24,950 --> 00:24:23,490 you go around you talk to the various 485 00:24:26,180 --> 00:24:24,960 faculties about what they're doing so 486 00:24:27,770 --> 00:24:26,190 you can communicate that to people 487 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:27,780 what's the one that's the most difficult 488 00:24:30,980 --> 00:24:29,610 to get across the work they've got not 489 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:30,990 because it's difficult to understand but 490 00:24:33,230 --> 00:24:32,490 people might not understand why they're 491 00:24:35,090 --> 00:24:33,240 doing it 492 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:35,100 that's a great question as to I'll give 493 00:24:38,780 --> 00:24:36,930 you one because it's very difficult 494 00:24:40,700 --> 00:24:38,790 which is quantum computing and where 495 00:24:42,170 --> 00:24:40,710 we've it we're right in that there's an 496 00:24:43,730 --> 00:24:42,180 international race on at the moment to 497 00:24:45,980 --> 00:24:43,740 see who can make the world's first 498 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:45,990 useful good quantum computer and 499 00:24:50,300 --> 00:24:47,970 Sydney's in it Sydney New South Wales 500 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:50,310 Australia is in that race well and truly 501 00:24:55,130 --> 00:24:52,770 we have a couple of labs at Sydney Uni 502 00:24:56,660 --> 00:24:55,140 that work on that also a lab at UNSW run 503 00:24:59,060 --> 00:24:56,670 by Professor Michele Simmons who's 504 00:25:00,950 --> 00:24:59,070 Australian of the Year she we work with 505 00:25:02,570 --> 00:25:00,960 her they work with us to try and make 506 00:25:04,250 --> 00:25:02,580 quantum computing that it was a problem 507 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:04,260 someone opens a box and looks at the 508 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:07,050 computer that stops work it's it's not 509 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:08,730 too far off that you've got to make an 510 00:25:11,210 --> 00:25:10,050 electron do something but you can't look 511 00:25:13,159 --> 00:25:11,220 at it 512 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:13,169 yeah so that's incredibly difficult - 513 00:25:16,310 --> 00:25:14,850 very hard to understand it's incredibly 514 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:16,320 difficult to get that kind of concept 515 00:25:20,659 --> 00:25:18,210 across so how you gonna change the 516 00:25:22,460 --> 00:25:20,669 battery yeah exactly exactly 517 00:25:25,399 --> 00:25:22,470 the other one that's really complicated 518 00:25:27,799 --> 00:25:25,409 and even for researchers is this idea of 519 00:25:30,710 --> 00:25:27,809 climate change like we've got a group at 520 00:25:32,299 --> 00:25:30,720 Sydney units called the integrated 521 00:25:33,770 --> 00:25:32,309 sustainability analysis that's what they 522 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:33,780 call and they literally go to 523 00:25:37,669 --> 00:25:36,090 conferences telling you that you should 524 00:25:38,870 --> 00:25:37,679 not be at a conference because to get to 525 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:38,880 that conference you had to fly on a 526 00:25:42,230 --> 00:25:40,650 plane and now you're a tourist and 527 00:25:44,090 --> 00:25:42,240 that's a huge impact that's like a 528 00:25:45,770 --> 00:25:44,100 bigger impact than all of the cars 529 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:45,780 combined in your country or something 530 00:25:50,659 --> 00:25:47,970 well yes if the numbers are out there 531 00:25:53,270 --> 00:25:50,669 it's it's certainly true but yeah 532 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:53,280 practically yeah yeah it's it's it's 533 00:25:57,919 --> 00:25:55,650 funny to go to a conference to say we're 534 00:25:59,570 --> 00:25:57,929 all making it worse but they're not 535 00:26:01,010 --> 00:25:59,580 because they're researching it right and 536 00:26:03,380 --> 00:26:01,020 this is a tough argument to make to 537 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:03,390 people to say we gotta change the way we 538 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:05,850 live if you and I were to live the way 539 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:07,890 that everyone on the planet was to live 540 00:26:11,570 --> 00:26:09,570 the way that you and I do well we would 541 00:26:14,450 --> 00:26:11,580 get rid of half of us yes we would need 542 00:26:16,700 --> 00:26:14,460 to have about 30 planets yeah to live 543 00:26:18,529 --> 00:26:16,710 the way that we do right and we don't 544 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:18,539 have that we've got one and that's a 545 00:26:23,930 --> 00:26:20,490 really tough sell it's enough sell to 546 00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:23,940 say we're using good science to make you 547 00:26:28,220 --> 00:26:26,370 know decisions that hurt us right yeah 548 00:26:29,899 --> 00:26:28,230 we've got to change look this also flows 549 00:26:31,250 --> 00:26:29,909 on to debates like immigration as well 550 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:31,260 people could abuse that so we look a 551 00:26:36,350 --> 00:26:33,450 strategy is technically full yeah 552 00:26:38,029 --> 00:26:36,360 exactly and in this economic argument 553 00:26:39,529 --> 00:26:38,039 which I'm not even going to get into but 554 00:26:40,820 --> 00:26:39,539 yes so this is things you're grappling 555 00:26:42,890 --> 00:26:40,830 with everyday work you must have a 556 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:42,900 fascinating job it's it's a pretty good 557 00:26:46,490 --> 00:26:44,610 job and we get a lot of questions from 558 00:26:47,899 --> 00:26:46,500 students because a year you're 11 and 12 559 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:47,909 students they're they're not afraid to 560 00:26:51,260 --> 00:26:49,770 ask these questions so I've got to be a 561 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:51,270 cross I've got to know what I'm what I'm 562 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:52,650 talking about with respect to some of 563 00:26:56,659 --> 00:26:54,330 the questions they're gonna ask and you 564 00:26:57,770 --> 00:26:56,669 give them both sides of what's going on 565 00:27:00,169 --> 00:26:57,780 so they can have a bit of think about 566 00:27:03,740 --> 00:27:00,179 themselves correct it's difficult to 567 00:27:06,049 --> 00:27:03,750 keep opinions out of it sometimes we 568 00:27:08,149 --> 00:27:06,059 talk about the science process a lot 569 00:27:10,190 --> 00:27:08,159 right so predictably explain for example 570 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:10,200 it's really easy to spot when someone's 571 00:27:14,210 --> 00:27:11,970 not doing science right if they're not 572 00:27:15,129 --> 00:27:14,220 doing predict observe explained then not 573 00:27:17,259 --> 00:27:15,139 doing 574 00:27:19,299 --> 00:27:17,269 certain leaders of the you know of you 575 00:27:21,279 --> 00:27:19,309 know in the world for example ColdFusion 576 00:27:23,710 --> 00:27:21,289 ripping ripping themselves out of the 577 00:27:25,509 --> 00:27:23,720 Paris agreement is not a predictable of 578 00:27:27,099 --> 00:27:25,519 explain discussion exactly it's an 579 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:27,109 opinion right hmm 580 00:27:30,549 --> 00:27:28,970 but that's that's a but we need to talk 581 00:27:32,710 --> 00:27:30,559 about that because this is affecting us 582 00:27:34,029 --> 00:27:32,720 and we have evidence and we have backing 583 00:27:36,489 --> 00:27:34,039 and we have all of this kind of 584 00:27:38,889 --> 00:27:36,499 conversation about climate conversation 585 00:27:40,810 --> 00:27:38,899 about quantum computing that we need to 586 00:27:42,729 --> 00:27:40,820 be on top of to tell students about it 587 00:27:45,129 --> 00:27:42,739 so they can make the decisions in result 588 00:27:46,299 --> 00:27:45,139 Oh Tom I'm not done not done at all but 589 00:27:48,310 --> 00:27:46,309 you've been talking to us tonight about 590 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:48,320 music and everything I have been asking 591 00:27:52,269 --> 00:27:50,210 people do you think there's a formula to 592 00:27:53,889 --> 00:27:52,279 popular music that's easy to access to 593 00:27:56,619 --> 00:27:53,899 get a hit song or something like that do 594 00:27:58,570 --> 00:27:56,629 you feel that the scientific formula 595 00:28:01,539 --> 00:27:58,580 that can be applied that go right I've 596 00:28:04,149 --> 00:28:01,549 got a hit song I think Harry is I think 597 00:28:07,060 --> 00:28:04,159 there probably is some songs are 598 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:07,070 definitely formulaic does anyone come to 599 00:28:10,779 --> 00:28:08,690 mind is their favorite song of yours you 600 00:28:13,419 --> 00:28:10,789 go that's why I like that there's a 601 00:28:16,060 --> 00:28:13,429 great song from the 90s by a band called 602 00:28:18,399 --> 00:28:16,070 custard oh yeah yeah and they had a song 603 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:18,409 called hit song and they just basically 604 00:28:22,180 --> 00:28:20,210 they're the lyrics where I'm gonna make 605 00:28:23,619 --> 00:28:22,190 me a hit song and I think even the film 606 00:28:24,940 --> 00:28:23,629 clip they've got better-looking people 607 00:28:28,899 --> 00:28:24,950 to be in the film clip for them if I 608 00:28:30,399 --> 00:28:28,909 remember it yeah yeah there are even 609 00:28:32,169 --> 00:28:30,409 songs that call out what's happening 610 00:28:35,859 --> 00:28:32,179 like okay now this is the chorus and the 611 00:28:37,869 --> 00:28:35,869 beat and a drop down and the you know we 612 00:28:39,849 --> 00:28:37,879 have to go for a ride said Fred it would 613 00:28:41,830 --> 00:28:39,859 be a great example anything by the Pet 614 00:28:43,690 --> 00:28:41,840 Shop Boys also another example of stuff 615 00:28:45,339 --> 00:28:43,700 by the numbers yeah but but if you wanna 616 00:28:47,859 --> 00:28:45,349 if you want to you know give people 617 00:28:50,950 --> 00:28:47,869 escape which is what arts is right so 618 00:28:52,779 --> 00:28:50,960 music is escapism in a way you give them 619 00:28:55,330 --> 00:28:52,789 something that they expect so it's it's 620 00:28:57,099 --> 00:28:55,340 verse chorus verse breeds verse chorus 621 00:28:59,139 --> 00:28:57,109 repeat repeat repeat right that's 622 00:29:01,149 --> 00:28:59,149 definitely a formula there do you think 623 00:29:03,249 --> 00:29:01,159 songs that start with the chorus have an 624 00:29:04,899 --> 00:29:03,259 advantage such as dancing queen or 625 00:29:06,700 --> 00:29:04,909 there's no aphrodisiac like loneliness 626 00:29:09,039 --> 00:29:06,710 there's two examples of songs to start 627 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:09,049 with the chorus that is a great song no 628 00:29:15,879 --> 00:29:14,690 dancing queen oh and the other one I'm 629 00:29:17,830 --> 00:29:15,889 suspecting that maybe that's got 630 00:29:19,539 --> 00:29:17,840 something cuz it bangs in your head from 631 00:29:21,669 --> 00:29:19,549 the get-go what your chorus is well well 632 00:29:23,229 --> 00:29:21,679 maybe it's it's a it's a it's an 633 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:23,239 adjustment to the theme but the theme is 634 00:29:26,460 --> 00:29:24,490 still there right 635 00:29:28,410 --> 00:29:26,470 so what if you remove all of that you 636 00:29:29,370 --> 00:29:28,420 just end up with this rubbish that you 637 00:29:31,530 --> 00:29:29,380 can hear behind you 638 00:29:33,630 --> 00:29:31,540 or Japanese Noise music which is 639 00:29:36,810 --> 00:29:33,640 literally just noise yeah and that's 640 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:36,820 removing all of those rules and funnily 641 00:29:40,890 --> 00:29:39,490 enough that's not on the chance that is 642 00:29:42,750 --> 00:29:40,900 fair enough then I played the therm and 643 00:29:43,380 --> 00:29:42,760 tonight for the first time and I really 644 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:43,390 enjoyed it 645 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:45,370 Tom won the great things about kids is 646 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:47,170 they don't know what questions not to 647 00:29:53,820 --> 00:29:50,050 ask exactly so you must get flawed every 648 00:29:55,950 --> 00:29:53,830 day by questions you go yeah I'd tell 649 00:29:57,660 --> 00:29:55,960 kids all the time I tell students too I 650 00:29:59,790 --> 00:29:57,670 love playing a game called confuse a 651 00:30:01,500 --> 00:29:59,800 physicist right you can ask them 652 00:30:03,540 --> 00:30:01,510 fundamental questions and the students 653 00:30:06,540 --> 00:30:03,550 get it but but adults don't right so if 654 00:30:07,980 --> 00:30:06,550 you ask any physicist what is mass right 655 00:30:10,230 --> 00:30:07,990 and the students are like yeah what is 656 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:10,240 mass you know as adults we know not to 657 00:30:16,230 --> 00:30:12,610 ask that question because I don't know 658 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:16,240 reason but the students don't so I would 659 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:17,650 encourage anyone to go and ask a 660 00:30:21,420 --> 00:30:19,210 scientist may decide to say all right 661 00:30:24,210 --> 00:30:21,430 what's mass and the best you'll get is 662 00:30:25,650 --> 00:30:24,220 some hand wavy explanation Wow well it's 663 00:30:29,010 --> 00:30:25,660 this stuff that mess these things are 664 00:30:30,690 --> 00:30:29,020 made of okay what's that we don't know 665 00:30:32,970 --> 00:30:30,700 we don't worry that's what mass is okay 666 00:30:36,870 --> 00:30:32,980 what about what's 95% of the universe 667 00:30:38,430 --> 00:30:36,880 made of hand wavy again we don't know we 668 00:30:40,380 --> 00:30:38,440 literally don't know okay so what about 669 00:30:43,380 --> 00:30:40,390 those you started up with the pulsars 670 00:30:44,670 --> 00:30:43,390 yeah they seem to me like there's some 671 00:30:47,630 --> 00:30:44,680 sort of lighthouses have been put there 672 00:30:50,100 --> 00:30:47,640 by someone for some reason they there's 673 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:50,110 fixed in space and they're spinning in 674 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:51,850 space and they don't slow down or speed 675 00:30:56,940 --> 00:30:54,970 up they're very very precise timing 676 00:30:58,740 --> 00:30:56,950 devices and we use them for that right 677 00:31:00,270 --> 00:30:58,750 so we use them to figure out where they 678 00:31:02,460 --> 00:31:00,280 are so that we can then figure out where 679 00:31:04,500 --> 00:31:02,470 other stars are in relation to that well 680 00:31:06,030 --> 00:31:04,510 so really other rate racers might use 681 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:06,040 them for as well do maybe even put them 682 00:31:09,540 --> 00:31:07,170 there in the first place I would not 683 00:31:11,100 --> 00:31:09,550 just throwing it out there I would not 684 00:31:12,870 --> 00:31:11,110 doubt it if there are other people or 685 00:31:15,750 --> 00:31:12,880 other things around that they would also 686 00:31:17,700 --> 00:31:15,760 use pulsars for that and we use pulses 687 00:31:20,510 --> 00:31:17,710 as timing devices to calibrate our other 688 00:31:23,490 --> 00:31:20,520 timing devices like cesium clocks 689 00:31:25,050 --> 00:31:23,500 and who's your favorite female scientist 690 00:31:26,790 --> 00:31:25,060 again - who you started by talking about 691 00:31:28,830 --> 00:31:26,800 some that have missed out on a gong that 692 00:31:30,750 --> 00:31:28,840 you serve one who's one that would my 693 00:31:34,020 --> 00:31:30,760 favorite is Jocelyn Bell Burnell so she 694 00:31:35,370 --> 00:31:34,030 was the one that discovered pulsars she 695 00:31:37,140 --> 00:31:35,380 didn't get recognized because she was 696 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:37,150 married to someone at the Union was that 697 00:31:40,380 --> 00:31:38,530 what was the story why didn't she get 698 00:31:41,850 --> 00:31:40,390 hurt so the story is that she wasn't 699 00:31:43,980 --> 00:31:41,860 recognized with the Nobel Prize because 700 00:31:47,310 --> 00:31:43,990 she was a PhD student and PhD students 701 00:31:50,550 --> 00:31:47,320 generally don't get a Nobel Prize now 702 00:31:52,950 --> 00:31:50,560 the research that she did that found the 703 00:31:55,410 --> 00:31:52,960 Pulsar was an appendix to her PhD thesis 704 00:31:57,750 --> 00:31:55,420 so it wasn't even her PhD thesis that 705 00:31:59,370 --> 00:31:57,760 she discovered a pulsar it was something 706 00:32:01,860 --> 00:31:59,380 else and that was the reason given oh 707 00:32:04,620 --> 00:32:01,870 and if your joy division fan the front 708 00:32:06,420 --> 00:32:04,630 cover of the first runners I can't 709 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:06,430 remember the name of the album Joy 710 00:32:09,300 --> 00:32:07,810 Division I think it's called yes and yep 711 00:32:11,700 --> 00:32:09,310 and it's it bets that's a drawing a 712 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:11,710 pulsar signals I have I have met Jocelyn 713 00:32:14,850 --> 00:32:12,490 Bell Burnell 714 00:32:17,490 --> 00:32:14,860 recently and she was fascinating to talk 715 00:32:19,110 --> 00:32:17,500 to and she was saying she's not worried 716 00:32:20,940 --> 00:32:19,120 about the Nobel Prize thing because 717 00:32:24,180 --> 00:32:20,950 she's won every other award that's 718 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:24,190 available so she's kind of got got a lot 719 00:32:27,090 --> 00:32:25,570 of out of not winning the Nobel Prize 720 00:32:29,250 --> 00:32:27,100 because she's won everything else she 721 00:32:31,170 --> 00:32:29,260 recently won a breakthrough science 722 00:32:33,420 --> 00:32:31,180 prize for three million dollars and 723 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:33,430 donated the entire three million dollars 724 00:32:38,220 --> 00:32:36,370 to increasing diversity in stem which is 725 00:32:40,290 --> 00:32:38,230 fantastic she's a phenomenal human 726 00:32:43,260 --> 00:32:40,300 that's she could have spent a lot of 727 00:32:45,660 --> 00:32:43,270 money on a crappy video done that other 728 00:32:48,330 --> 00:32:45,670 guys you could have to manpower guys out 729 00:32:49,890 --> 00:32:48,340 there and everything did indeed that's a 730 00:32:51,510 --> 00:32:49,900 cool okay now where can we find out more 731 00:32:53,370 --> 00:32:51,520 about what you do what Sydney Uni does 732 00:32:55,950 --> 00:32:53,380 from the website you might be at yes so 733 00:32:57,630 --> 00:32:55,960 I'm on a few places so at Sydney Uni on 734 00:32:59,190 --> 00:32:57,640 the the science communicator I get a lot 735 00:33:03,100 --> 00:32:59,200 of calls about you know 736 00:33:04,870 --> 00:33:03,110 science and physics and stuff and I pop 737 00:33:06,610 --> 00:33:04,880 up around the place in science week I'm 738 00:33:08,350 --> 00:33:06,620 generally you know around it finds you a 739 00:33:09,850 --> 00:33:08,360 fellow podcaster tell us about that 740 00:33:12,669 --> 00:33:09,860 where can we find that correct correct 741 00:33:14,740 --> 00:33:12,679 so I my podcast is called stem Punk it's 742 00:33:16,029 --> 00:33:14,750 me and a couple of other science 743 00:33:20,289 --> 00:33:16,039 communicators we sit down we chat about 744 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:20,299 science and stem hence my stem t-shirt 745 00:33:24,159 --> 00:33:22,610 and we have trivia nights and live 746 00:33:25,899 --> 00:33:24,169 events and all that sort of stuff 747 00:33:27,100 --> 00:33:25,909 we interview lots of people one of my 748 00:33:28,810 --> 00:33:27,110 favorite people have interviewed is 749 00:33:31,899 --> 00:33:28,820 Brian Schmidt Nobel Prize laureate 750 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:31,909 Frenchman was my old lecturer also a 751 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:34,130 Margret Wertheim who is a Sydney Morning 752 00:33:38,890 --> 00:33:36,530 Herald journalist in science she wrote a 753 00:33:42,549 --> 00:33:38,900 book called my thakura's trousers all 754 00:33:44,140 --> 00:33:42,559 about women in science yeah so yeah that 755 00:33:45,039 --> 00:33:44,150 that's that's what I do I'm also on 756 00:33:48,940 --> 00:33:45,049 Twitter 757 00:33:50,649 --> 00:33:48,950 Gordo's is my twitter GOI de a you said 758 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:50,659 rightlook thank you guys for coming and 759 00:33:53,230 --> 00:33:51,770 talking to us today and it's great and 760 00:33:54,610 --> 00:33:53,240 which people are still making BP crazy 761 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:54,620 noises I'll just put a few of them on 762 00:34:23,800 --> 00:33:55,970 the tape and it's great meeting it up 763 00:34:29,300 --> 00:34:27,169 hey fellow skeptics in Medford here with 764 00:34:31,250 --> 00:34:29,310 Celeste reward your friendly host of 765 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:31,260 starting the strange a podcast that 766 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:33,210 looks at topics ranging from legends 767 00:34:38,389 --> 00:34:36,450 panics and cryptids 3d myths psychology 768 00:34:40,490 --> 00:34:38,399 and folklore breaking things down and 769 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:40,500 picking things apart as we skeptics do 770 00:34:45,260 --> 00:34:42,690 we bring a few different perspectives on 771 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:45,270 things flusher for example is a witty 772 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:47,370 cartoonist and Ben is a brilliant writer 773 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:49,770 and longtime skeptical investigator we 774 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:51,450 don't always agree but we have fun 775 00:34:56,210 --> 00:34:53,970 trying and we learn new things join us 776 00:34:58,550 --> 00:34:56,220 for new topics every week or two or 777 00:35:01,220 --> 00:34:58,560 browse our backlog of evergreen episodes 778 00:35:03,590 --> 00:35:01,230 available on iTunes and all your 779 00:35:25,420 --> 00:35:03,600 podcasts feeding troughs squaring the 780 00:35:28,310 --> 00:35:25,430 strange take care strangers yet another 781 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:28,320 web page that's been brought to my 782 00:35:31,790 --> 00:35:29,970 attention by highly Robertson from the 783 00:35:34,190 --> 00:35:31,800 Northern Rivers vaccination supporters 784 00:35:38,150 --> 00:35:34,200 this comes from the Australian Medical 785 00:35:46,270 --> 00:35:38,160 Association and it's their position 786 00:35:53,450 --> 00:35:49,390 published on the 20th of November 2018 787 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:53,460 complementary medicine revised 2018 this 788 00:35:57,970 --> 00:35:55,650 document outlines the Australian of 789 00:36:01,100 --> 00:35:57,980 Medical Association's position on 790 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:01,110 complementary medicine 791 00:36:05,910 --> 00:36:02,970 [Music] 792 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:05,920 the introduction complimentary medicine 793 00:36:10,770 --> 00:36:08,290 includes a wide range of products and 794 00:36:13,020 --> 00:36:10,780 treatments with therapeutic claims that 795 00:36:16,650 --> 00:36:13,030 are not presently considered to be part 796 00:36:19,110 --> 00:36:16,660 of conventional medicine complementary 797 00:36:22,140 --> 00:36:19,120 medicines include herbal medicines some 798 00:36:24,890 --> 00:36:22,150 vitamin and mineral supplements other 799 00:36:27,450 --> 00:36:24,900 nutritional supplements homeopathic 800 00:36:30,030 --> 00:36:27,460 formulations and traditional medicines 801 00:36:32,150 --> 00:36:30,040 such as Ayurvedic medicines and 802 00:36:34,170 --> 00:36:32,160 traditional Chinese medicines 803 00:36:36,660 --> 00:36:34,180 complementary therapies include 804 00:36:40,380 --> 00:36:36,670 acupuncture chiropractic Osteopathy 805 00:36:42,110 --> 00:36:40,390 naturopathy and meditation in this 806 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:42,120 position statement the term 807 00:36:47,240 --> 00:36:44,650 complementary medicine refers to both 808 00:36:50,100 --> 00:36:47,250 complementary medicines and therapies 809 00:36:52,980 --> 00:36:50,110 the use of complementary medicine in 810 00:36:54,890 --> 00:36:52,990 Australia is considerable and increasing 811 00:36:57,900 --> 00:36:54,900 the Australian Medical Association 812 00:37:00,660 --> 00:36:57,910 recognizes that evidence-based aspects 813 00:37:02,970 --> 00:37:00,670 of complementary medicine can be part of 814 00:37:05,610 --> 00:37:02,980 patient care by a medical practitioner 815 00:37:07,950 --> 00:37:05,620 there is limited efficacy evidence 816 00:37:10,620 --> 00:37:07,960 regarding most complementary medicine 817 00:37:13,350 --> 00:37:10,630 and some have the potential to cause 818 00:37:15,810 --> 00:37:13,360 adverse reactions or interact with 819 00:37:18,330 --> 00:37:15,820 conventional medicine unproven 820 00:37:20,670 --> 00:37:18,340 complementary medicines and therapies 821 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:20,680 can also pose a risk to patient health 822 00:37:26,940 --> 00:37:23,610 either directly through misuse or 823 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:26,950 indirectly if a patient defers seeking 824 00:37:31,710 --> 00:37:29,650 medical advice as an aside that is 825 00:37:36,570 --> 00:37:31,720 certainly the case with something like 826 00:37:40,290 --> 00:37:36,580 homeopathy where the potion itself poses 827 00:37:43,260 --> 00:37:40,300 very little risk but taking it instead 828 00:37:46,790 --> 00:37:43,270 of seeking proper advice does pose risk 829 00:37:49,530 --> 00:37:46,800 we read on consumer investment in 830 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:49,540 unproven medicines and therapies also 831 00:37:55,650 --> 00:37:52,210 risks patients being unable to afford 832 00:37:58,980 --> 00:37:55,660 necessary evidence-based treatment when 833 00:38:01,590 --> 00:37:58,990 there are out-of-pocket costs children 834 00:38:04,170 --> 00:38:01,600 are a vulnerable population group due to 835 00:38:07,050 --> 00:38:04,180 the complexities of diagnosing and 836 00:38:09,720 --> 00:38:07,060 treating illness in children a medical 837 00:38:12,090 --> 00:38:09,730 practitioner should inform any diagnosis 838 00:38:14,030 --> 00:38:12,100 and ongoing treatment plan including the 839 00:38:18,030 --> 00:38:14,040 use of complementary medicine 840 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:18,040 research there is a substantial gap 841 00:38:22,290 --> 00:38:19,690 between the use of complementary 842 00:38:25,470 --> 00:38:22,300 medicine and the evidence to support 843 00:38:27,510 --> 00:38:25,480 that use evidence-based scientific 844 00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:27,520 research in the form of randomized 845 00:38:32,130 --> 00:38:30,250 controlled trials is required to 846 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:32,140 validate complementary medicines and 847 00:38:37,740 --> 00:38:34,810 therapies for efficacy safety quality 848 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:37,750 and cost effectiveness so that 849 00:38:43,500 --> 00:38:40,450 practitioners and consumers can evaluate 850 00:38:46,890 --> 00:38:43,510 the potential benefits and any adverse 851 00:38:48,570 --> 00:38:46,900 effects funding third party funding 852 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:48,580 should only provide benefits for 853 00:38:53,070 --> 00:38:50,890 complementary therapies if they are 854 00:38:56,820 --> 00:38:53,080 supported by good quality scientific 855 00:38:59,610 --> 00:38:56,830 evidence of safety and efficacy medical 856 00:39:02,070 --> 00:38:59,620 practitioners medical practitioners 857 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:02,080 should have access to education about 858 00:39:06,540 --> 00:39:03,850 complementary medicine in their 859 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:06,550 undergraduate vocational and further 860 00:39:12,180 --> 00:39:09,330 education to provide advice to patients 861 00:39:14,070 --> 00:39:12,190 they should be informed of the level of 862 00:39:16,620 --> 00:39:14,080 scientific evidence for both benefits 863 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:16,630 and adverse reactions including 864 00:39:20,130 --> 00:39:18,490 potential interactions with other 865 00:39:22,650 --> 00:39:20,140 medicines the Australian Medical 866 00:39:24,390 --> 00:39:22,660 Association recognizes that some medical 867 00:39:25,950 --> 00:39:24,400 practitioners choose to undertake 868 00:39:29,010 --> 00:39:25,960 additional training in complementary 869 00:39:30,570 --> 00:39:29,020 medicines and therapies and include them 870 00:39:32,630 --> 00:39:30,580 as part of their everyday practice 871 00:39:35,310 --> 00:39:32,640 medical practitioners should 872 00:39:37,410 --> 00:39:35,320 specifically ask patients whether they 873 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:37,420 are using complementary medicines or 874 00:39:42,390 --> 00:39:39,610 therapies in order to appropriately 875 00:39:44,820 --> 00:39:42,400 manage their medical treatment medical 876 00:39:46,770 --> 00:39:44,830 practitioners should be able to explain 877 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:46,780 the level of evidence for all medicines 878 00:39:52,580 --> 00:39:48,970 and therapies they utilize to help 879 00:39:54,570 --> 00:39:52,590 patients make an informed choice it is 880 00:39:57,800 --> 00:39:54,580 acknowledged that some medical 881 00:40:00,900 --> 00:39:57,810 treatments have a low level of evidence 882 00:40:02,700 --> 00:40:00,910 consumers consumers should have access 883 00:40:04,590 --> 00:40:02,710 to accurate information and and 884 00:40:06,390 --> 00:40:04,600 education about the level of evidence 885 00:40:08,300 --> 00:40:06,400 for complementary medicines and 886 00:40:11,460 --> 00:40:08,310 therapies in order to make well-informed 887 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:11,470 choices this should include the risks 888 00:40:17,340 --> 00:40:14,410 and costs of delaying conventional 889 00:40:19,590 --> 00:40:17,350 treatment consumers should also be made 890 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:19,600 aware of the potential financial impact 891 00:40:24,510 --> 00:40:22,090 of diverting their income from 892 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:24,520 evidence-based treatment in favor of 893 00:40:29,710 --> 00:40:26,330 unproven alternative med 894 00:40:32,110 --> 00:40:29,720 and therapies consumer information and 895 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:32,120 education should stress the importance 896 00:40:37,240 --> 00:40:34,970 of continuing to consult medical 897 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:37,250 practitioners in relation to medical 898 00:40:42,220 --> 00:40:40,010 conditions and health concerns it is 899 00:40:43,750 --> 00:40:42,230 important that patients inform their 900 00:40:45,850 --> 00:40:43,760 medical practitioner about any 901 00:40:50,910 --> 00:40:45,860 complementary medicines or therapies 902 00:40:53,620 --> 00:40:50,920 they are using regulation of medicines 903 00:40:56,290 --> 00:40:53,630 the majority of complementary medicines 904 00:40:58,630 --> 00:40:56,300 do not meet the same standard of safety 905 00:41:01,720 --> 00:40:58,640 quality and efficacy as mainstream 906 00:41:04,210 --> 00:41:01,730 medicines as they are not rigorously 907 00:41:06,490 --> 00:41:04,220 tested information about the level of 908 00:41:08,310 --> 00:41:06,500 testing and evidence should be easily 909 00:41:10,990 --> 00:41:08,320 accessible by medical practitioners 910 00:41:13,030 --> 00:41:11,000 consumers and complementary medicine 911 00:41:16,300 --> 00:41:13,040 practitioners in the absence of 912 00:41:18,910 --> 00:41:16,310 sufficient efficacy data it is essential 913 00:41:21,430 --> 00:41:18,920 that there be clear and true statements 914 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:21,440 regarding the efficacy and standards of 915 00:41:26,650 --> 00:41:23,810 evidence relied on including accurate 916 00:41:30,030 --> 00:41:26,660 labeling government agencies such as the 917 00:41:32,470 --> 00:41:30,040 Therapeutic Goods Administration TGA and 918 00:41:34,540 --> 00:41:32,480 educational bodies such as the National 919 00:41:37,390 --> 00:41:34,550 prescribing service should ensure 920 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:37,400 information on safety quality efficacy 921 00:41:42,100 --> 00:41:39,890 and cost-effectiveness of complementary 922 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:42,110 medicines is readily available to 923 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:44,770 consumers and health practitioners 924 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:50,210 should ensure they promptly report any 925 00:41:57,670 --> 00:41:53,210 adverse events they suspect are caused 926 00:42:00,160 --> 00:41:57,680 by complementary medicine to the TGA the 927 00:42:03,910 --> 00:42:00,170 Australian Medical Association supports 928 00:42:08,170 --> 00:42:03,920 the TGA x' public database of medicine 929 00:42:10,690 --> 00:42:08,180 adverse events notifications regulation 930 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:10,700 of practitioners there should be 931 00:42:14,620 --> 00:42:13,010 appropriate regulation of complementary 932 00:42:17,490 --> 00:42:14,630 medicine practitioners and their 933 00:42:19,720 --> 00:42:17,500 activities regulations should ensure 934 00:42:22,810 --> 00:42:19,730 complementary medicine practitioners 935 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:22,820 cannot claim expertise beyond their 936 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:25,970 scope of practice complementary medicine 937 00:42:31,270 --> 00:42:28,370 practitioners should not claim to be 938 00:42:34,090 --> 00:42:31,280 able to make a diagnosis of illness for 939 00:42:36,700 --> 00:42:34,100 people that the medical profession does 940 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:36,710 not believe are suffering from a medical 941 00:42:43,090 --> 00:42:41,170 condition registered health 942 00:42:45,100 --> 00:42:43,100 registration of health disciplines 943 00:42:47,350 --> 00:42:45,110 through the process of state or 944 00:42:51,310 --> 00:42:47,360 territory registration should be 945 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:51,320 dependent on a the discipline being 946 00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:53,570 supported by accepted scientific 947 00:43:00,100 --> 00:42:57,610 evidence or safety and efficacy and B 948 00:43:03,090 --> 00:43:00,110 registrants completing an approved 949 00:43:06,940 --> 00:43:03,100 course of training at an accredited 950 00:43:09,250 --> 00:43:06,950 institution registered health 951 00:43:11,260 --> 00:43:09,260 practitioners must not depart from the 952 00:43:14,380 --> 00:43:11,270 scope of practice regulated by the 953 00:43:16,390 --> 00:43:14,390 relevant registration board non 954 00:43:19,150 --> 00:43:16,400 registered health and complementary 955 00:43:21,490 --> 00:43:19,160 medicine practitioners there must be 956 00:43:24,130 --> 00:43:21,500 effective regulation of health and 957 00:43:25,660 --> 00:43:24,140 complementary medicine practitioners for 958 00:43:28,570 --> 00:43:25,670 whom there is no state-based 959 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:28,580 registration arrangement the Australian 960 00:43:32,890 --> 00:43:30,290 Medical Association supports the 961 00:43:35,260 --> 00:43:32,900 National Code of Conduct for health care 962 00:43:37,630 --> 00:43:35,270 workers provided by the Council of 963 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:37,640 Australian governments and enacted in 964 00:43:42,220 --> 00:43:40,130 law in each state and territory the 965 00:43:43,720 --> 00:43:42,230 national code requires non registered 966 00:43:45,460 --> 00:43:43,730 health and complementary medicine 967 00:43:48,220 --> 00:43:45,470 practitioners to observe a code of 968 00:43:50,830 --> 00:43:48,230 practice including that they must not 969 00:43:53,740 --> 00:43:50,840 provide care that is outside their 970 00:43:56,470 --> 00:43:53,750 experience or training it provides a 971 00:43:58,780 --> 00:43:56,480 mechanism to apply sanctions for 972 00:44:01,240 --> 00:43:58,790 breaching the code including a ban on 973 00:44:04,350 --> 00:44:01,250 practice as well as mutual recognition 974 00:44:07,090 --> 00:44:04,360 of prohibition orders across Australia 975 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:07,100 the Australian Medical Association also 976 00:44:12,100 --> 00:44:09,290 supports the establishment of a national 977 00:44:14,350 --> 00:44:12,110 public register of non registered health 978 00:44:17,350 --> 00:44:14,360 and complementary medicine practitioners 979 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:17,360 who are subject of a banning order in 980 00:44:21,250 --> 00:44:19,370 their state or territory to assist 981 00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:21,260 employers and the general public 982 00:44:28,140 --> 00:44:24,290 identify unethical and incompetent 983 00:44:30,250 --> 00:44:28,150 practitioners misleading use of titles 984 00:44:33,670 --> 00:44:30,260 non-medical health and complementary 985 00:44:38,410 --> 00:44:33,680 medicine practitioners should not use 986 00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:38,420 the title doctor or dr unless such 987 00:44:45,130 --> 00:44:42,530 persons a possess a doctorate recognised 988 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:45,140 by the appropriate registration board in 989 00:44:51,610 --> 00:44:46,970 the state or territory in which they 990 00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:51,620 practice and be ensure that their use of 991 00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:53,810 the title is always accompanied 992 00:45:00,160 --> 00:44:56,330 by information confirming that they are 993 00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:00,170 not medical practitioners non-medical 994 00:45:07,330 --> 00:45:02,930 health practitioners should not use the 995 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:07,340 titles surgeon or physician unless they 996 00:45:12,490 --> 00:45:09,890 are a registered of the Medical Board of 997 00:45:14,380 --> 00:45:12,500 Australia use of these titles by 998 00:45:17,020 --> 00:45:14,390 non-medical healthcare practitioners 999 00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:17,030 carries significant risk that members of 1000 00:45:21,550 --> 00:45:18,530 the public will believe they are 1001 00:45:24,310 --> 00:45:21,560 consulting a medical practitioner when 1002 00:45:27,340 --> 00:45:24,320 they are not and as an aside I've 1003 00:45:29,980 --> 00:45:27,350 certainly seen cases along these lines 1004 00:45:33,900 --> 00:45:29,990 where people are under the impression 1005 00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:33,910 they are consulting real health 1006 00:45:39,790 --> 00:45:36,890 practitioners real medically trained 1007 00:45:42,870 --> 00:45:39,800 health practitioners when they're not we 1008 00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:42,880 read on regulation of advertising 1009 00:45:47,710 --> 00:45:45,530 advertising of services by complementary 1010 00:45:50,130 --> 00:45:47,720 medicine practitioners must not claim 1011 00:45:52,900 --> 00:45:50,140 expertise in medical diagnosis and 1012 00:45:55,390 --> 00:45:52,910 treatment nor should they attempt to 1013 00:45:58,420 --> 00:45:55,400 dissuade patients from seeking the 1014 00:46:00,580 --> 00:45:58,430 advice of medical practitioners well I 1015 00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:00,590 keep interrupting myself but there have 1016 00:46:07,390 --> 00:46:03,970 been cases where these complementary 1017 00:46:10,090 --> 00:46:07,400 medicine practitioners will dissuade 1018 00:46:12,730 --> 00:46:10,100 people from seeking real advice from 1019 00:46:15,250 --> 00:46:12,740 doctors because they implant the idea 1020 00:46:18,070 --> 00:46:15,260 that doctors are part of the global 1021 00:46:20,590 --> 00:46:18,080 conspiracy or they're only in it for the 1022 00:46:21,690 --> 00:46:20,600 money your doctors make you ill and on 1023 00:46:25,300 --> 00:46:21,700 it goes 1024 00:46:29,620 --> 00:46:25,310 direct to consumer advertising must not 1025 00:46:31,570 --> 00:46:29,630 a exploit patients vulnerability or lack 1026 00:46:35,650 --> 00:46:31,580 of medical or health related knowledge 1027 00:46:38,290 --> 00:46:35,660 be attempt to induce unjustified fear or 1028 00:46:40,570 --> 00:46:38,300 concern in patients consumers regarding 1029 00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:40,580 their own health in order to increase 1030 00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:43,610 demand for the advertisers products or 1031 00:46:49,690 --> 00:46:46,850 services see encourage inappropriate 1032 00:46:52,420 --> 00:46:49,700 self diagnosis or treatment or in any 1033 00:46:55,210 --> 00:46:52,430 way discourage patients from seeking the 1034 00:46:57,850 --> 00:46:55,220 advice from their medical practitioner d 1035 00:47:00,550 --> 00:46:57,860 attempted to promote an unreasonable 1036 00:47:03,070 --> 00:47:00,560 expectation as to the applicability or 1037 00:47:05,890 --> 00:47:03,080 efficacy of the advertised product or 1038 00:47:07,460 --> 00:47:05,900 service e create inappropriate use of 1039 00:47:12,590 --> 00:47:07,470 goods or services 1040 00:47:16,670 --> 00:47:12,600 F make unsubstantiated claims or G be 1041 00:47:19,100 --> 00:47:16,680 false misleading or deceptive a sponsor 1042 00:47:22,010 --> 00:47:19,110 making a therapeutic claim about food 1043 00:47:25,150 --> 00:47:22,020 should also be required to seek the same 1044 00:47:28,550 --> 00:47:25,160 advertising approval as for other 1045 00:47:29,900 --> 00:47:28,560 therapeutic products mechanisms for 1046 00:47:37,450 --> 00:47:29,910 making complaints about advertising 1047 00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:40,820 and that was the Australian Medical 1048 00:47:47,180 --> 00:47:42,930 Association's position statement on 1049 00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:47,190 complementary medicine 2018 and as ever 1050 00:47:53,070 --> 00:47:49,170 there will be a link in this week's show 1051 00:48:14,780 --> 00:48:11,760 [Music] 1052 00:48:16,670 --> 00:48:14,790 [Applause] 1053 00:48:18,380 --> 00:48:16,680 thank you for listening to the skeptics 1054 00:48:21,140 --> 00:48:18,390 and I'm still hanging out here on Market 1055 00:48:22,460 --> 00:48:21,150 Street enjoying the passing parade of 1056 00:48:27,860 --> 00:48:22,470 people doing their Christmas shopping 1057 00:48:32,720 --> 00:48:30,380 thank you to everybody who's stuck with 1058 00:48:35,150 --> 00:48:32,730 the skeptic son now for 10 years if 1059 00:48:37,070 --> 00:48:35,160 you're new thank you for listening thank 1060 00:48:39,260 --> 00:48:37,080 you a big thank you to those people who 1061 00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:39,270 subscribed by patreon or PayPal at 1062 00:48:46,100 --> 00:48:42,930 skeptics and TV and long-term listeners 1063 00:48:48,050 --> 00:48:46,110 will know without those contributions 1064 00:48:50,630 --> 00:48:48,060 without contributions from people like 1065 00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:50,640 you five dollars a month ten dollars a 1066 00:48:53,690 --> 00:48:51,450 month or whatever 1067 00:48:56,330 --> 00:48:53,700 there simply would be no skeptics own 1068 00:48:58,700 --> 00:48:56,340 and thank you to the people who go over 1069 00:49:00,740 --> 00:48:58,710 to Mina comdataís you to listen the 1070 00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:00,750 Maenads podcasts bunga bunga and other 1071 00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:05,130 podcasts and a reminder the free the 1072 00:49:11,060 --> 00:49:07,770 free 20 19 may not calendar is available 1073 00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:11,070 Maina comdataís you thank you to all the 1074 00:49:21,570 --> 00:49:17,490 and this is almost the last show for 1075 00:49:23,970 --> 00:49:21,580 2018 one water sneak in before 2019 1076 00:49:25,890 --> 00:49:23,980 comes around and next week I'll be 1077 00:49:27,780 --> 00:49:25,900 having a commentary about predictions 1078 00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:27,790 and the future and new age and all that 1079 00:49:32,970 --> 00:49:28,650 sort of stuff 1080 00:49:35,430 --> 00:49:32,980 but for this week from a very nice 1081 00:49:42,180 --> 00:49:35,440 wintry San Francisco this is Richard 1082 00:49:47,609 --> 00:49:44,710 you've been listening to the skeptic 1083 00:49:54,310 --> 00:49:47,619 zone podcast please visit our website at 1084 00:49:57,810 --> 00:49:54,320 wwlp.com tax and to access the bat 1085 00:50:00,460 --> 00:49:57,820 catalog of episodes going back to 2008 1086 00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:00,470 you can follow the skeptic zone podcast 1087 00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:03,770 on twitter at skeptic zone visit our 1088 00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:06,050 facebook page or leave a review on 1089 00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:09,410 itunes you can also support the skeptic 1090 00:50:15,130 --> 00:50:12,770 zone via patreon or PayPal the skeptic 1091 00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:15,140 zone podcast is an independent 1092 00:50:19,270 --> 00:50:17,090 production reviews and opinions 1093 00:50:21,430 --> 00:50:19,280 expressed on the skeptic zone are not 1094 00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:21,440 necessarily those of Australian skeptics 1095 00:50:37,970 --> 00:50:24,370 or any other skeptical organisation 1096 00:50:45,809 --> 00:50:41,370 I'm here to San Francisco's famous pier 1097 00:50:49,349 --> 00:50:45,819 39 and there are about 4 200 sea lines 1098 00:50:50,910 --> 00:50:49,359 basking out here on pontoons and for the 1099 00:50:55,319 --> 00:50:50,920 first time in a long time there are more 1100 00:50:57,359 --> 00:50:55,329 sea lines here than tourists I'm sitting 1101 00:51:00,270 --> 00:50:57,369 on a sort of large wooden viewing 1102 00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:00,280 platform and I couldn't think of a 1103 00:51:06,599 --> 00:51:02,770 better place to play this week's dice 1104 00:51:08,250 --> 00:51:06,609 game we have a 10 sided down with me I'm 1105 00:51:10,140 --> 00:51:08,260 gonna roll it three times and I'm gonna 1106 00:51:14,870 --> 00:51:10,150 see if skeptics earnestness come use 1107 00:51:18,380 --> 00:51:14,880 their psychic predicting power so 1108 00:51:23,030 --> 00:51:18,390 everybody think of a number from 1109 00:51:27,290 --> 00:51:23,040 1 to 10 thinking maybe the sea lions are 1110 00:51:27,300 --> 00:51:31,380 first number seven 1111 00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:33,510 we can give another number or the same 1112 00:51:39,380 --> 00:51:35,410 number if you wish here we go rolling it 1113 00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:43,200 scum up six so seven and six 1114 00:51:51,720 --> 00:51:45,370 use your predicting power one more time 1115 00:51:56,580 --> 00:51:51,730 here we go nearly nearly fell off the 1116 00:52:02,220 --> 00:51:56,590 platform it's a nine seven six and nine